Are you making critical mistakes that are lessening your executive presence, short-changing your personal success and critical impact?
In this episode, friends and former colleagues Shelby Nicholl and Jackie Knolhoff discuss a Forbes article by Terina Allen titled “Executive Presence: 8 Warnings Signs That You Don’t Have It.”
You'll be entertained by:
About this podcast:
If you're a woman in wealth management (or any male-dominated industry), this podcast is for you.
Muriel Siebert (first woman member of the NYSE ) said, "When a door is hard to open and nothing else works, sometimes you just have to rear back and kick it open.” After decades of sluggish progress, it’s time for us to kick the door open on women’s success.
Recorded and produced by Muriel Network.
Graphic Design by John Gallagher.
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/ra/let-good-times-roll License code: EV5ON7Y3CSESDSEU
Join our community
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Are you making critical mistakes that are lessening your executive presence, short-changing your personal success and critical impact?
In this episode, friends and former colleagues Shelby Nicholl and Jackie Knolhoff discuss a Forbes article by Terina Allen titled “Executive Presence: 8 Warnings Signs That You Don’t Have It.”
You'll be entertained by:
About this podcast:
If you're a woman in wealth management (or any male-dominated industry), this podcast is for you.
Muriel Siebert (first woman member of the NYSE ) said, "When a door is hard to open and nothing else works, sometimes you just have to rear back and kick it open.” After decades of sluggish progress, it’s time for us to kick the door open on women’s success.
Recorded and produced by Muriel Network.
Graphic Design by John Gallagher.
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/ra/let-good-times-roll License code: EV5ON7Y3CSESDSEU
Join our community
Instagram
Hi, I'm Shelby Nicholl. I'm a 25-year corporate veteran and I spent most of my career inside of the wealth management industry. After climbing the ladder to reach top levels at two broker dealers, I often found myself as the only woman in the room. I felt and saw many corporate leaders and women advisors feeling left out, burned out and ready to have more impact. If you're a woman in wealth management, this podcast is for you. In this podcast, I'll tell the stories of women who are slaying it, doing things differently and bringing new energy to their work.
Shelby Nicholl:This podcast is named in honor of a Muriel Siebert quote. Muriel Siebert was the first woman member of the New York Stock Exchange and she said when a door is hard to open and nothing else works, sometimes you just have to rear back and kick it open. After decades of sluggish progress, it's time for us to kick the door open on women's success. Our goal with Muriel Network is to close the gaps on women in the senior leadership ranks and the gender-based wealth gap. So today's topic is one that comes up often. For senior leader, it's the elusive executive presence. My guest is Jackie Knolhoff. Jackie is Executive Director of Communications at Wells Fargo and has spent two decades helping financial advisors build their business and navigate media opportunities to grow their businesses. Jackie is married and has two children who are 13 and 14.
Jackie Knolhoff:Welcome, Jackie. Hi, thanks for having me.
Shelby Nicholl:So I'm really excited to have you today talking about this topic because you have done so much work with the media and certainly you want to show up to media as having executive presence it is. The topic of executive presence is one that feels can feel really gendered as well. The things that are historically sort of executive presence are some of those male qualities and, as you sometimes hear someone said to me recently, executive presence is primarily pale, male and stale, or, as the Swifties might say, it's the Chads, the Brads and the Dads. So what do you think of, jackie, when you think about executive presence?
Jackie Knolhoff:When I think of executive presence, I think about how a person carries themselves and their whole package. It's from the introduction to how they sit in the meeting and interact with everyone, how that person represented themselves and how they left you feeling. It's not always what you say, but it's how you make the people feel that you're around.
Shelby Nicholl:It's how you carry yourself and it's your whole package, the whole package. I think about charisma and that influence and gravitas. I think about presentations and podiums and boardrooms and it's the appearance pieces. I know when I'm with my girlfriends, we talk a lot about appearance. What do you talk about with your girlfriends when you talk about executive presence?
Jackie Knolhoff:I think it's knowing who you're going to be with that day. We've worked together and we are used to those high-profile presentations, large auditoriums. It's your chance to deliver your message, to sell your idea. But it's also the times when you're in the hallway and you're in between meetings and people think they have that one minute with you to pitch their idea or to have that and it's that short engagement. So I think when I'm talking to people, people recall the little moments that they have in addition to did you see her nail that presentation? So it's how you carry yourself at all times and there's no off time. So your executive presence you're on all the time now because everyone remembers every little interaction and with you know flexible work schedules. People have less time for that face-to-face, so it means more. You know to always have your guard on and think about how you're presenting yourself.
Shelby Nicholl:So it's a great point and it reminds me of an article that we're going to discuss today. So we found this article from Forbes and we're going to link it in the show notes. There are a million lists and frameworks and tips out there for how to build executive presence, but this article has a really interesting take. It's called Executive Presence Eight Warning Signs. You Don't have it, and as you talk about the little moments, jackie, it really talks about some of those little moments. The author of the article is Tarina Allen. It's from 2019. So it is pre-COVID, it's pre-pandemic, pre-zoom, but I thought it would be fun for us to go through these warning signs and discuss, all right. So the first warning sign is that you rarely speak up or you tend to shy away from asking questions.
Jackie Knolhoff:That often carries over when people are in new roles, and I was guilty of this. I had taken a break from media relations and I went to market research and I felt I was learning and I wasn't thinking out loud and carrying myself at the level that I was at with all my past history. And so I think, speaking up, even if you're talking and you're referencing your past experiences, even though you're in a new space, I think we can all do more of that.
Shelby Nicholl:I see this also with introverts. They're sometimes viewed as not having a lot of executive presence and they really have to kind of force themselves to speak up in that room.
Jackie Knolhoff:Right right, you can have great ideas and there is no bad idea. It just adds to the conversation and your comment might spark an idea in someone else.
Shelby Nicholl:That's right. We all have a unique viewpoint. Okay, warning sign number two was you speak up too much and end up dominating the conversation. Okay, this was me. I am an external processor. I also learned early on that sometimes I had a unique viewpoint, just being where I was from or whatnot. I came up in marketing and customer insights and then led a product area, so I was not a traditional person in the roles that I had, especially in the later part of my career.
Jackie Knolhoff:But you were selected because you did have experiences, so you were valuable.
Shelby Nicholl:Yes, yes, but sometimes, depending on the leader, they may not like all that external processing, that I might've had a voice that they didn't want to hear.
Jackie Knolhoff:Yeah, yeah, I think that. So maybe not in your case, but in other people's case where they don't have the experiences that maybe I'm attracted to, I stop listening. I would think that won't work and that's shame on me To keep the conversation going. I mean, if it's not a good idea for me, it might be a good idea for someone else at the table or having this discussion. But as far as executive presence, you have to stay engaged. So maybe it doesn't work for you right then and there, but don't shut that person off. Keep listening, because it might spark further discussion down the road.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, that's a great point. Talk to me also about being concise, because this is speaking up too much, dominating the conversation. I know there's some data that says that for men, the more you talk the more credible you are, but for women, the opposite can be true. What have you seen? Because you've been training people to do media, I would think conciseness it's easier said than done, and I myself am often guilty of it.
Jackie Knolhoff:So when working with the media, we often prepare our talking points, write them out. We know what we want to say. We might have a little cheat sheet in front of us before we do a media interview of what our key messages are, but when you're talking with media, they pause so that you do just continue to spew out information that's not necessarily your core points that you want to make. So to be succinct, you know, have your tips written out in front of you, think about many ways to say the same thing, and then, you know, ask the group if they're following.
Shelby Nicholl:That's great. Do you and media still use tools like message maps?
Jackie Knolhoff:individual that your brand wants to do. So you answer those questions that are new or trending and then you bring it back to who you and your brand really is, and message maps help you stay on point.
Shelby Nicholl:Sign that you might not have executive presence. Number three is you struggle to moderate your emotions or struggle to adjust to others' emotions. This one, this one kind of got my goat as I read it. I what, what were your thoughts?
Jackie Knolhoff:Well, it's one thing to have emotion, but I think some people have, are so passionate about what they do. And and how can that? You know leading with passion, you're leading your team to. You know to accomplish your goals, whatever it is you're setting out to do. I think some people may confuse that passion with emotion and that's maybe not fair.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, maybe we should take this as you struggle to moderate, like the negative emotions maybe you know, prone to outbursts or something like that I think that's obviously not a great executive behavior. It's just not good, right, right.
Jackie Knolhoff:No, that's a problem, right, that's a problem and demotivate your team. So emotions as the gauge on how you interact with others you know that that's a whole nother topic, but I think emotion and passion is good as long as it's cheering the team and moving it forward.
Shelby Nicholl:I think you have to also show some emotion, or at least some passion, in order to be an inspirational leader.
Jackie Knolhoff:Yes. Passion, inspiration, yeah. Without that, you're just clocking in and doing your job. It's not who you are, what you're aspiring to be.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, one thing I also thought of was that it feels as if men can go a lot further on the emotion scale than women can. I know of male executives who will throw things down in a meeting and storm out those kinds of stories, and that doesn't seem to Grand gestures, the big gestures. The big gestures. But if women?
Jackie Knolhoff:do it, they're being catty or they're having a hissy fit.
Shelby Nicholl:Yes, I can't even imagine we would be viewed as so unprofessional if we did that, but it's tolerated.
Jackie Knolhoff:Yeah, I think outbursts is one of our next topics of leaders, but I have a story for that one when we get to that one.
Shelby Nicholl:Okay, well, let's go to that one. So yes, you're right. Number four is you're prone to outbursts or tolerate workplace bullying?
Jackie Knolhoff:Yes, I think people that can't regulate their emotions can't bring reality to be appropriate. I think they ruin their own career. I think they pull themselves on whatever track that they're hoping to be on. They just flat out don't work well with others. And I have an example of this back in the day when newspapers were still circulated and everybody went on their desk, I would read the news online before I came in. But other people on my team viewed that you had to read that physical newspaper that was waiting for you on your chair. And one day someone said did you see the headline? And I didn't know what the headline on the print edition was, and he threw the paper at me and I just thought I've lost all respect for you. This is not how you treat men, women, children, animals, you know. And I just lost confidence in my leader, and you know absolutely.
Shelby Nicholl:It's hard to come back from that.
Jackie Knolhoff:Right, and that's you know. Referring back to our last topic of emotions, that's when your emotions bubble up and that's an outburst and that's you don't want those and women can't have those, because then we're, you know, bullying in the workplace and and in the workplace and not being a good leader. That's the double standard.
Shelby Nicholl:Absolutely yeah. Then we're hysterical and who knows when we might pop off again yeah.
Jackie Knolhoff:Right, Right. And that's what people will remember. Not the good idea, not the latest campaign you did a slam dunk on. They'll remember how you acted.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, the outburst, the second part of this one really attracted me to the tolerate workplace bullying, because I think about how, as women, we are often trained, especially my generation, right, I'm like in my mid 40s and as we were coming up, you know, there were certain behaviors that happened and you just had to sort of just look away in some ways and and and there was a certain amount of things that you had to kind of put up with. Unfortunately, that world has shifted and now, now that would be complicit in bad behavior and tolerate them. Yeah, we cannot tolerate workplace bullying and you would be viewed as weak if you don't speak up when something happens.
Jackie Knolhoff:And we can really thank our children and the school systems for teaching us to stand up for ourselves and to recognize when someone does have bad behavior, and it is now okay to acknowledge that and discuss with others how. That is not how we're going to do this going forward.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, I've been afraid at times of discussing it and I've certainly have seen poor leadership and as I get further into my career, I think, gosh, if I don't speak up, I am complicit. I am just the same. I'm just supporting it. Yeah.
Jackie Knolhoff:And it's also disappointing when you have senior leaders above you that see it and take no action. I've had that in my career, to where it was easier just to look away, whether the person is being a bully or being grumpy. In a meeting, when someone has great ideas, you can't look away. You got to face it and take care of it or it's a distraction to the rest of your team.
Shelby Nicholl:It is, and it's hard because you do feel like you're potentially on the line for the next promotion et cetera, and you don't want to make waves. It's a very difficult line for so many of us. One story I have, too, on tolerating workplace bullying and an example of great executive presence was at Edward Jones. Executive presence was at Edward Jones and I was presenting to the executive committee and the chief legal officer had some data that had contradicted our proprietary study on a certain topic and he really it was several legal officers ago actually, it was quite a long time ago, but the executive really kind of came after me in this meeting and I was pretty new to the firm. I'd been there a couple of years.
Jackie Knolhoff:Maybe you were sitting around the table with many people, Many people.
Shelby Nicholl:There's 20-ish people in the room, I'm at one end of the table, he's in the middle, et cetera. I stood my ground with that leader and I was really anchored by the accuracy of what we had done and I had prepared because I had seen the research that he was bringing up. I had prepared for that comment and question. But afterwards my division leader who's now running the firm it was Penny Pennington she went to him afterwards and said don't come after my team like that again. And that came back to me and that was such an amazing example of not tolerating that kind of bullying and that kind of abusing.
Jackie Knolhoff:Right and she had your back. So you're more confident now to present that same data or, as the story evolves, continue it and that's like having passion. Like we were talking earlier. She wasn't emotional, she had support and passion for her team. It all kind of builds and evolves and you know, if that would have been allowed, you know it would not have, you know, encouraged the progress for the team.
Shelby Nicholl:Well, and can you imagine how I certainly would have felt if that was allowed and then I was stifled from there. Then anytime I was presenting research and somebody had a different point of view from some random thing they read, that would undo all of the good work that we've done.
Jackie Knolhoff:I'm pretty confident, though, when you present, so I'm pretty sure you held your ground.
Shelby Nicholl:It was a good meeting, that's for sure.
Jackie Knolhoff:All right. So funny thinking about executive presence. It's the awkward moments that you grow the most. It's the ooh. I kind of got a little hot and sweaty in there that it caught me off guard, but I did this. And then you think about when you look back and reflect. That helps you build your executive presence for the next big meeting, for the next big presentation.
Shelby Nicholl:That's an excellent point. That was such a growth opportunity for me. But I was very strong in what the data said and I believed in the validity of the data and the research that the team had done. But it definitely makes you think about that right, Like what are you anchored in? If you're presenting a certain opinion, what is it anchored in? And is it? Is it in fact or not? Do you know those facts cold and do you also have the heart belief at the same time? Yeah, yeah, Okay. Barrier number five, or sign that you don't have executive presence. Number five is you show up late or you don't take time to interact with or engage with your audience.
Jackie Knolhoff:Yeah, I was thinking about this one. So think about being an executive or being a financial advisor and you are going to see a client on site and maybe your client owns a business and it's a factory. Factories run on time like clockwork. You probably don't need to wear a suit to the factory if you know what their business is, just knowing your client and needing them where they're at, be on time, look like them and know them so that when you arrive they see that you do know who they really are.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, I totally agree. I also think about. I've been reading this book, influence is your Superpower by Zoe Chance and it's similar to the Kahneman book around slow and fast thinking and she talks about the gator brain and the judge brain and how we make so many decisions in this like split second very quickly. Gator brain and so I think executive presence and how you sort of show up and being on time and being able to glad hand a little bit if it's a big presentation and knowing where you need to be and when.
Jackie Knolhoff:Yes, yes.
Shelby Nicholl:But I will say I was.
Jackie Knolhoff:That's not overnight. That happens from all these topics we've been discussing of fails. You won't do that again. You remember what you do poorly. Fortunately, we as moms and women, and you know caregivers, you learn from your mistakes, and that's true, and how you carry yourself, too, that's right, that's right.
Shelby Nicholl:Well, and I was always late to meetings.
Jackie Knolhoff:I am a chronically late when they run over when you're back to back to back, yeah, and then you hate to do a hard stop when the conversation. I always say the best part of the meeting is the last two minutes. It's like from 9.58 to 10 am. Those last two minutes are when you're finally going to get everybody on the same page and then you got to go.
Shelby Nicholl:Yes, yeah, it's a great point. All right, number six fidget, ramble or display a disconnect between your verbal and nonverbal messages.
Jackie Knolhoff:Yeah, this is something working with financial advisors or executives when it's hard, when you're on the phone. And, like during COVID, we did everything via Zoom. So it's not just you, it's your background, it's you know, being honest, we're on a podcast. I just put the dogs outside because it was distracting me and I didn't know what the listeners could hear, so I wanted to take that away. That distracted my mind. It all rolls into your final presentation and how you're presenting yourself. So, if you can think ahead of time, before that interview, before that presentation, before that Zoom interview, clear all that out so you can just focus on your key messages.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, I thought this one too with the fidget. I thought could also be taking lots of notes. So if you're looking too much at your notes, you might look like you don't know your material. Or if you're in a meeting and you're frantically scribbling notes, that can look like you're not very engaged in the conversation. Or it can look like you're the admin at the table.
Jackie Knolhoff:Right, yeah, that's a good call and I'm guilty. In my career I've often wanted to be the scribe so that I knew I would have good notes afterwards. But then I wasn't looked upon as the thought leader in the room or one of the thought leaders or the leader of the discussion, because I was just kind of capturing everything I knew. I needed that for later, for my purposes, to create the strategy and the story that we wanted to tell. But, yeah, that is a good call out.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, I had a leader really early in my career and she was just always a little kind of too perfect, a little too robot-ish and she took tons of notes and just never, never quite made it in that executive ranks because she just wasn't viewed as an executive given those things.
Jackie Knolhoff:When you are building your acumen and you are building your experience and the stories you can share. If I could look back at my younger self, I would say you know, before I worked at Edward Jones, I was in college and I worked at a hospital and I worked in medical records. Well, I had stories and experiences from there, but I didn't draw the parallel to the skills that were presented in my current role. People have something to say. We just need the confidence to say it sooner. That's interesting.
Shelby Nicholl:I love that. I think also what you're getting at is just bringing your whole set of experiences to bear and making those connections across the lifetime.
Jackie Knolhoff:Okay, yes, it makes you more approachable, and it's not. We were talking earlier about emotion. People will see that you have skill sets other than just on what we're talking about, and it's not we were talking earlier about emotion. People will see that you have skill sets other than just on what we're talking about, and that helps you bring your whole self to whatever opportunity you're working.
Shelby Nicholl:Okay, number seven is you behave unprofessionally, look unkempt or smell bad.
Jackie Knolhoff:Okay, well, ladies, let's shower and remember our deodorant. So I do have a funny story on this topic. I was at lunch one time it was a work day it was not a working lunch, but it was a work day and I was meeting a friend for lunch I think it was a Friday Nice restaurant in West St Louis and a gentleman walked by and he had on black trousers like a khaki pant, xyz company, and I was like, oh he is. She's. Like yeah, I don't think he's going to get it because that's how he looks. And I was like, oh my gosh.
Jackie Knolhoff:And he did get the role but he wasn't a good fit for the role and I think he lasted like six months at said company. And it was just so funny how, when I saw him, I was like, oh okay, she knows, knows that person. But then I found out he was going for a c-suite spot and I was like no, and I just could tell he didn't carry himself, wasn't confident, went on some dress shoes. I know briefcases are out of style, but I think maybe his son had carried his backpack. So you know, it's like it's not about cleanliness, people, it's about always, you know, being put together and that sounds it's harder for women. I mean, this is a gentleman that I'm referencing.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, I have one girlfriend that she talks a lot about shoulders, back, heels on.
Jackie Knolhoff:Oh right.
Shelby Nicholl:So it's all about that posture. Yeah, you don't slouch and the heels give you a different, a different way that you are walking, that is, has a little bit more authority, even more so than like a wedge would, which is interesting in this list, because I think most of us land here a lot.
Jackie Knolhoff:We think a lot about our clothes and our hair and our makeup and nails. I have to say that during COVID, post-covid and return to office. So I'm currently sitting in an office in downtown St Louis and no one in my office building is on my direct team. So I often wear from Athleta some very nice leisure, wear black pants and I will wear a loafer. No one sees me below my waist so I'm on camera all the time. So I've made more investments in blazers and nice sweaters and you have to have eye makeup on ladies. You must wear eye makeup if you're going to have a camera on you. And when I knew you at Edward Jones, I wore the nicest suits I could afford. I wore the three-inch heels, I did it all and now I just do what people.
Shelby Nicholl:see, I'm really glad you said eye makeup because also in another book I was reading in preparation for this is Sylvia Ann Hewlett's Executive Presence 2.0. And she's like the grandmother of I don't know what to call it, the queen mother of all the grand dame of executive presence books.
Shelby Nicholl:She wrote the first one like 10 years ago. She's probably why we all talk about it. So she has a new book out. But one of the things that it really showed in there was more makeup, not less. To your point, we need that eye makeup Not too glitzy, like you want to hit the note between like natural makeup and total drama. There's a certain spot in between where you are really viewed as having executive presence and not being slouchy. So I thought your comment there was important coachy.
Jackie Knolhoff:So yeah, I thought your comment there was important, um, and I'd also say that women and their jewelry, I think you know. Statement necklaces are great, but don't wear turtlenecks in July. You know when we're thinking about you have to be timely, you have to show you're aware. Um so less is more, but seasonally being correct is also a win.
Shelby Nicholl:It's a great point. I've always wondered and wished. I've always wished I had like a uniform sort of signature style. My girlfriends might say well, I wear a blazer a lot. That's probably the closest that I get to a signature style, but it seems like that would be easier.
Jackie Knolhoff:Yeah, I do, I am guilty. I think I have 15 black G gap shirts in my closet for layering, and so I always know for my staple if I'm in a rush, I can grab a black top, a black jean or slacks or whatever you want to call them today, and then just a random blazer, and I will be comfortable and confident with that. I know I've got my pyramids on and I know they look good and they fit my daughter's a dancer and costumes. They help explain who you are. It's not Halloween, it helps tell the story, and so I've learned a lot from her and her friends.
Shelby Nicholl:Number eight signal that you do not have executive presence is that you fail to set standards for integrity, ethics and boundaries. We all have to set our standard for integrity, ethics and boundaries. We need to figure out where our lines are and stick to them, and this is hard, especially when you are in the midst of promotion time and you might be up for the next promotion.
Jackie Knolhoff:Right, it's tricky. I think all the topics that we've covered today they all kind of build and as we all seek growth and advancement in our career, they all build on each other. When I was reviewing the story, when you shared it with me, I was thinking of the Real Housewives of New York. There's one of the characters on there sings a song. She does cabaret and it's not great, but it's good but it's funny because she sings a song. Money Can't Buy you Class and as you grow in your career and you do start to make more money and maybe you have different incentives with your company, if you are not kind to work with, if you don't make ethical decisions and influence those on your team to do the same and you're just not a classy stand-up person, you're not going to have the buy-in from your team.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, absolutely, as I thought about this one too, I really came back to this idea that we can't be complicit with bad behavior, and we certainly have talked about that one. It can be really tricky for us to know when we want to speak up, and I think also women are held to sort of this double bind as well. One of the things that I've been reading a lot about is how to get past that double bind, and one of the tool sets is a framing statement where, instead of just calling out a bad behavior, you might or a different idea, even you frame it up about why you feel so strongly that you need to speak up. I feel it's a matter of values, or I feel it's a matter of integrity for our firm that blah, blah, blah.
Jackie Knolhoff:So you weave that language in.
Shelby Nicholl:That's what you're suggesting, and so you weave that language in because it removes some of the sort of negative emotion of women's having strong opinions by framing it with a bigger purpose, that's above you. Yeah, Well, that's good. This was a fairly old article. Anything in the Zoom world that we should add or take away here? I think Zoom is really important personally, you need a decent background. Yours has some greenery. Today you have a mantle behind you. Tell us what do you tell people for media interviews with Zoom? Tell?
Jackie Knolhoff:us? What do you tell people for media interviews with Zoom Right? So in the industry, in the financial services industry, you cannot. If you are regulated, you cannot use a fake background and I don't know if all people know that that are independent and think they can just have the beach behind them. Of course you want it to be appropriate for your audience and who you're speaking with, but it needs to be authentic and a lot of people are doing colored wallpaper. That might be what you have. Or if you did your own chalk drawing, it's beautiful, but I have a lot of colleagues and peers that have florals. It's real and it's not distracting, it's just it looks like a natural setting.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, I like that too. It's anything it looks like a natural setting. Yeah, I like that too. It's anything that you would say, from a personal object standpoint, that an advisor should have or should not have in their background.
Jackie Knolhoff:I wouldn't do a window. You can see in mine today, if you can see that, shelby, there's a little reflection, the sun moves during the day, cars come creatively. No windows because you can't control it and some people do Zoom interviews in their closet and that's fine and I'm in an open space, but I like to be on the main floor. So be comfortable wherever you sit, but set it up as your office, respect it, have others respect it and it's your presentation of yourself.
Shelby Nicholl:That's right. I remember at one firm we had a person in finance and he had these bookshelves behind him and the bookshelves looked great but they they were always kind of messy and it seemed as if every time we would get on the phone with even some of the executive team, like somebody would make a comment about the books, like hey man, aren't you going to clean up the books? Or they look just the same as they did the last time we were on this call, or you know something to that effect. So I'd say too, if you have stuff behind you, if you've got objects there, like put a little design.
Jackie Knolhoff:Your audience is not going to hear your message.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, when the shelves are messy, it's sending a signal.
Jackie Knolhoff:Right, I'd clear the shelves and just put some simple art, some little structures of different shapes or pictures that aren't present day. Don't make them timely to where they look old, you know. Have it be like your favorite childhood photo or something that tells a story in itself, but not something that people are going to try to figure out while you're speaking.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, good point, great point, any other last?
Jackie Knolhoff:thoughts. I just you know, when I think of executive presence, I think of you, know you want to make yourself proud. You want to be proud of not just the show you're putting on, the interview you're giving, the presentation you're presenting, but every day it's a building towards who you are, where you want to go, what you want your career to do. And you know we get tired, we wear a lot of hats, but put on that eyeliner, feel confident, stand your ground and I think women are doing amazing things right now Fantastic.
Shelby Nicholl:Yeah, as my friend Jennifer Bowman would say, heels on shoulders. Back To your point. Have the eyeliner, all those things, but then stand your ground. Know your message, be passionate about it, be an inspirational leader.
Jackie Knolhoff:It's great Right.
Shelby Nicholl:And be there for one another.
Jackie Knolhoff:Well, thank you so much for this. I love this discussion this was a lot of fun.
Shelby Nicholl:Thanks, Jackie. Appreciate you being here. Have a great day Thanks.
Jackie Knolhoff:Take care Bye, bye, take care, bye.
Shelby Nicholl:Hey friends, if you'd like this podcast, we have three quick things you can do to support us. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. Share this podcast with your contacts and go over to Muriel Network M-U-R-I-E-L networkcom and sign up for a free newsletter. Thanks, you might be wondering what Muriel Network is all about. Muriel Network is a modern digital community for women who work in wealth management, including those who are at the home offices and the broker dealers, the asset management firms and those who are advisors and wealth planners working directly with clients. With 75% men at the top and over 75% men in the advisor and planner community, we women often find ourselves overspoken, underestimated and very burned out. The Imperial Network is a refuge, a safe space where we can unite, support one another, inspire each other to take the big leaps and learn how to really break through. Learn more at Muriel Network M-U-R-I-E-L Networkcom. If you and I both go, it will be incredible. See you there.