Dial Up Empathy to Compassion: Serving Modern Widows with Advisor Megan Kopka

Everyone can benefit from this important episode on widowhood and how the wealth management industry can rise to better serve the financial planning needs of today's modern widows. BTW - the average age of widowhood is just 59 and 80% of women aged 80+ are widows.  If you're a woman, a woman advisor, an advisor serving women or just have women in your life, this episode is an important one.

This episode features Kick It Open podcast host Shelby Nicholl and special guest Megan Kopka, CFP, RLP.

The episode unfolds into a heartfelt exploration of Megan's own experience of early widowhood, shedding light on the identity crisis and financial implications that follow such a devastating event. With the average age of widowhood at 59, we discuss not only the personal impact but also the broader economic strain felt during what should be peak earning years. Our dialogue underscores the necessity of supportive networks and communities like the Modern Widows Club, which offers resources and peer advice to those experiencing loss. We share stories of growth and resilience, and the strength found in the solidarity of those who have walked a similar path.

Resources mentioned during the episode:

·      Kathi Balasek trains financial professionals in grief literacy and empathy. Learn more about Kathi, access course and more at: Grief Literacy and Communication Education for Financial Professionals (kathibalasek.com)

·      Modern Widows Club is a national organization with local chapters all over the country. Sign up for their newsletter and learn more about the organization at: Home - Modern Widows Club.

·      Wings for Widows – Provides coaching and financial education services especially for men and women who are widows. Learn more at: Financial Planning For Widows | Wings for Widows

·      Savvy Ladies provides financial education to women. Learn more at: Free Financial Education & Advice | Free Financial Advisors (savvyladies.org)


About this podcast: 

If you're a woman in wealth management (or any male-dominated industry), this podcast is for you. 

Muriel Siebert (first woman member of the NYSE ) said, "When a door is hard to open and nothing else works, sometimes you just have to rear back and kick it open.”  After decades of sluggish progress, it’s time for us to kick the door open on women’s success.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Grief. Losing your spouse is the most stressful life event period. It's not the same thing when you lose someone older. It's not the same thing when it's not your spouse and it's not your day-to-day life. You have to think about her experience. When she goes to sleep at night, it looks different. When she gets up in the morning, it looks different. How they're sleeping in the middle of the night is different. That's just sleep and you can imagine if marriage touches everything, if money touches everything. You are making significant financial decisions.

Speaker 2: 0:43

Hi, I'm Shelby Nickel. Have you ever had a great conversation with a colleague or a girlfriend and you leave with an energy, boost of inspiration, ready to fight another day? Me too, and that feeling was the inspiration for this podcast. I'm a 25-year corporate veteran who climbed the corporate ladder to reach top levels at two broker-dealers, and often I found myself being the only woman in the room. I saw women advisors and corporate leaders burned out, overlooked and generally wanting to have more impact. And it's not just about us who work within the wealth management industry. It's about the untapped potential of women as investors.

Speaker 2: 1:21

In this podcast, we tell the stories of women who are winning clients, leading organizations, doing things differently and bringing new energy to their work. There's a quote that inspires me by Muriel Siebert, the first woman member of the NYSE. She said when a door is hard to open and nothing else works, sometimes we just have to rear back and kick it open. Welcome to the Muriel Network Kick it Open podcast. I'm joined today by Megan Kopka. She's an advisor, cfp, registered life planner, ria managing partner and the board chair for the national nonprofit organization called the Modern Widows Club. Megan is a former math teacher, someone who became a widow herself at a very early age a solo parent, a medical advocate and feminist, and Megan enjoys reading, being outdoors and traveling. She's mom to two grown children, bruce and Jaden. Megan, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Speaker 1: 2:30

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate your interest.

Speaker 2: 2:34

So we first met when I had noticed all of your fabulous content on LinkedIn, and a few years ago, a friend of mine, an industry colleague, had experienced widowhood really early in life as well, and so your LinkedIn post really caught my eye, and when we spoke, we chatted about how important it is that women see clearly what modern widowhood looks like, whether you're an advisor or a corporate leader or just a woman in the industry or just a woman. This is a really important podcast episode. So, megan, can you share a little bit about your personal journey and your practice?

Speaker 1: 3:15

Sure, yeah, let me talk about my professional journey. First, I started in the industry in 2007 as a career changer. From being a mathematics teacher, I taught algebra Everyone loves that and quickly took a job at Axe Advisors and quickly transitioned to Merrill Lynch so I could really be an investment advisor, and later that led me to launching my own RIA practice in 2018. So my focus, primarily my niche, is to work with widows and caregivers. That didn't start right away, because I was widowed myself in 2014. It took me about four years before I felt like my own story and emotions were able to serve this particular niche market. And so just getting comfortable in my own skin with the widowhood and losing my husband, keith, and now in my practice with the Prize Wealth Management, we serve women facing new beginnings.

Speaker 1: 4:17

So, just on a personal note too, I became widowed at 38. My children were 10 and 14 when my late husband was diagnosed with ALS and they were 14 and 18 when he passed away. So I have experienced that. What I can only look back on and now call an identity crisis. That loss of identity as a wife because marriage really touches everything led me to find out that money touches almost everything too right Our titling, our taxes, everything you know, just our cash flow, our sense of security and freedom on the planet. It led me to want to seek more and do better for other widows, especially widows who don't have the financial acumen I did. I mean, I definitely felt like I saw holes and made mistakes in my own plan along the way. So I want to be able to help people in clearly what were my darkest times possibly, help them and reduce suffering in their tough times and challenges, and so that's why I serve caregivers and widows today. Times and challenges.

Speaker 2: 5:24

And so that's why I serve caregivers and widows today. So you know, after hearing about your story and thinking about my colleague, you and she are really the first people I've known who have been what I would term kind of really a truly young widow, I mean at 38, that was obviously very young and she was too, but I learned through this that the average age of widowhood is 59, and that's based on 2010 census data. So pre-COVID data Tell us about kind of modern widowhood and widowhood at those young ages.

Speaker 1: 5:59

Sure, let me talk a little bit about the numbers and I'll talk a little bit about myself and my personal experience. Young widows, so starting at age 40, 1% of the married population becomes widowed and that number goes up exponentially to a you know, an average being 59. When you get into the 80s, 80% of married women are likely to be widowed. So you think about that arc of womanhood make sure, the bell-shaped curve. I'm a significant outlier, but it happens and it happens to thousands of women every year and it happens to thousands of women every year when you think about that average age being 59, then you think about women that are in the peak earning years of their life and maybe their kids have just gone off to college and that's when they're becoming let out or just graduated from college, right, and you think you're going to have the next seven years or eight years to really put away in your retirement very, very hard, because the college payments are done and you lose your breadwinner or the second income, whatever it was. You lose that ability to really beef yourself up into retirement. So 59 could be a very, very precarious age to become widowed. It can be very unstable and also that age re-careering or having brain fog for a year or two might mean that you lose a job. That's right, yeah, so you could lose all of your income and when you think about all the secondary losses that go along with the initial loss, it's devastating for a lot of women. So it's more prevalent to me because I'm in it. So I find other widows and then from my personal standpoint it's really hard as a caregiver and as a widow to go to.

Speaker 1: 8:08

You know, I was part of the caregiving ALS support group or just general support groups. My parents are vegan yogis. I'm here for my husband and they would just be shocked. And you're so young. Oh, my gosh, at least I'm older and my kids are grown and I'm going. That's wow. That's kind of hurtful, like I came here to be a part of the situation that I'm in and the new role that I have, not to be an outlier. But it was very ostracizing at times. And then you know, you kind of think about what people say to you and quite frankly I don't know if I would have been able to do the things that I did with my husband if it weren't for having a really strong teenage son who helps me with a lot of the caregiving needs with ALS. It's a neurological disease where you slowly become a quadriplegic over time.

Speaker 2: 9:08

And that was really hard. That was hard on my body.

Speaker 1: 9:10

It was emotionally hard too. So our caregiving groups were very, very helpful and I needed to be there because I had to have that information, I needed the education and I needed the resources. So support groups are amazing because you get all the life hacks from your peers. Now, you know, being in a caregiving peer group, I was 30, 40 years younger than most of the other people that were in attendance. And then, you know, come to find out for me. In my area there was nothing like that for widows. Come to find out for me. In my area there was nothing like that for widows. There was nothing like a caregiving support group. Hospice held a grief group. There's something called grief share, which is based in Christianity. However, it was the same thing. You're super young, you're an outlier again in those groups and they are strictly there very time limited. One was six weeks, the other was 13 weeks and it's specific to grief. It's not about rebuilding resilience in your life.

Speaker 2: 10:13

There are groups when you're going through the illness, but then post illness it's like grief is six weeks, grief is 13 weeks, these programs, and obviously it was years of healing and there wasn't anything aimed at younger women, younger widows.

Speaker 1: 10:30

Yeah, I think that's why the Modern Widows Club. Well, modern just means now.

Speaker 1: 10:36

And so the average age that is being served in the Modern Widows Club is 52. So we are a bit younger, but it is the place where widows go for support, not just dealing with grief, and it's ongoing. We had a widow in our club that came back into our organization, had never heard of it before, but she had been widowed for 12 years. Well, her son was three when she was widowed and now he's's 15 and she is feeling that impact of not having a father in a young teenage man's life. And you know it's a club that you never want to join, but it's there for you in your community or virtually online for all the different facets, to just do what I did in caregiving groups, like learn what the resources are for you and your children and hopefully speed up that process to reduce suffering.

Speaker 1: 11:32

I like support groups and it's been proven through resilience science that there are two things when it comes to building resilience that you cannot get from within, and one is a mentor and the other is to find your own tribe, and it is a tribe of widows. And no, we don't sit around and cry about everything. But I will tell you, I've laughed in every meeting and I've cried in every meeting. So there's this dichotomy in widowhood and that I felt like I used the terminology bittersweet so much, because there is so much sorrow in joyful occasions and there is so much joy in my grief now, knowing I was loved, knowing that I had a marriage, vows that were fulfilled. But I still miss Keith and, being in the Modern Widows Club, I can talk about him presently because I will always love him.

Speaker 1: 12:23

He will always be a part of me.

Speaker 2: 12:26

You know, megan, as I was just listening to you and all of the resources and how both bittersweet and joyful and grief all combining, it's just. There is nothing like what you have gone through and what your children have gone through, and I can appreciate how the feelings that you're having for Keith and around widowhood must change so much as the time goes on right, with your son and your daughter at different stages for them and their lives, and things that they're missing, that they wish that they weren't missing, and then also joy in these newfound kind of friendships and the purpose of modern widows club and all of the advocacy work that you're doing. Um, it is bittersweet, it is wonderful that you're getting to do this work and it's also hard that you've had to. You were just talking a little bit about some of the financial sides as well, and one of the things that I grew up talking a lot about in my home was life insurance. Tell us, kind of, what's your thoughts on life insurance?

Speaker 1: 13:42

As soon as someone is financially dependent on your income, you should have life insurance period. I've actually gone so far in presentations before you know. Hey, as a parent, we always wonder are we going to be remembered as a good parent or a bad parent? If you don't have a will, you're a bad parent. I hate to like, oh gosh, we're not supposed to be so judgmental, but I think you know that's where you name your guardian and I think I'm in my lane stating that. Like it sounds awful, but I do say it tongue in cheek. Just understand where you are.

Speaker 1: 14:15

You have people that are reliant on the things that you do now and the decisions you make now. So again, if you have a child, yes, 100%, you should have life insurance, unless you have enough in assets to cash flow to have that safe withdrawal rate replace your income. Do they have survivor benefits? Sure, but they're minuscule, they're not full replacement, so then it's limited as well. Also, if you look at what your spouse is going to go through, I've worked with three widows during COVID in the healthcare sector, who lost their husbands and were like just tell me, I have enough money to get out of here and rethink my career, the stress level of being widowed and working in health care during COVID was too much for them and that was their priority. So without life insurance, the answer probably would have been a hard no.

Speaker 2: 15:14

Yeah, I grew up in a household where my dad worked high voltage, so you know the substations that power obviously whole communities and towns and cities and everything, and when you would work on a high voltage substation, they could not turn off the entire thing.

Speaker 2: 15:33

Right when it needs attention, they just turn off the one piece of equipment that you in this case my dad was working on, and so it's really scary. So life insurance was like a constant conversation and a little bit of like dinnertime banter in my family. We became really comfortable talking about life insurance. But years later, when I was at Edward Jones, I was doing marketing research and I studied life insurance and what we found in those studies was that basically a third of people didn't want to talk about life insurance at all. It was too close to death, it was too uncomfortable, etc. People applied to both consumers or investors and it applied to advisors. So if you were an advisor in that third that didn't want to talk about it and wasn't talking about it, then you were also missing all the clients that needed you to talk about it Exactly.

Speaker 2: 16:30

And we're just like getting our funnel down right, that third is cut off entirely. The other two thirds now we only have, you know, a third of them that really want to be talking about it. So it just is such an important conversation, but I think, like advisors, we just have to be brave. We have to be brave and having the hard conversations.

Speaker 1: 16:50

It's not only that, too. Like when I started working at Merrill Lynch, you scoffed at insurance and even annuity sales. These were bad things that we just didn't spend our time dealing with. And I did go to a conference in 2015, and the insurance provider openly said at the beginning of his presentation I'll try and be as brief and direct as possible I know most of you are just here for your CE credit and I went up to him afterwards as, having been widowed for about a year and a half at that time and I said these advisors, elite investment advisors who think it's all about the investments I can tell you I was that person too. That person too. There are plenty of people who become disabled or pass away before we reach retirement, and I think it's a huge mistake. I don't care if you're working with someone who makes $600,000 a year If they are underinsured. You are not acting as a fiduciary judiciary.

Speaker 2: 18:07

When you think about what advisors must do or know or say when a client becomes a widow, what are the top kind of two or three things that you just want so much for other advisors to do?

Speaker 1: 18:15

So I guess it varies too. Are you working with a prospect, are you working with a client? But overall, I think meeting at least every two weeks in that fresh period fresh widowhood, meaning the first year, 18 months, even two years is prudent. What to say is always is prudent. What to say is always how's your grief today, what's keeping you up at night, or what are your priorities for this meeting? You can have some of your own, but unless they're timely, go with hers right. It's more about her agenda and supporting her.

Speaker 1: 18:53

The other thing, too, is I feel like if you're working, especially with a fresh widow, you really need to be a holistic planner. You need to get in the weeds with the cash flow. You need to understand that the income is changing. Are we annuitizing or taking some payments for pensions? How does that get taxed? Will their Social Security income be something that you need further investigation on? Like if the deceased spouse was a federal employee, are they going to be impacted to a decrease in social security and how that works? The income will decrease and more and more Like. I think it's probably a general thing that's safe to say is most women working with us are seeking security or building a secure future, but typically that safety and security piece is part of what they're desiring. Peace of mind goes a long way for women in general and it's magnified exponentially in widowhood magnified exponentially in widowhood.

Speaker 2: 20:03

Tell us, is there a certain order of sort of priorities that you think of, as you personally have worked with widows?

Speaker 1: 20:08

Yeah, that's a great question For me. I do holistic financial planning, so gathering the documents are always a priority. But some people don't even know where their documents are, so you might want to actually look at their tax return to find out where accounts are. You can use that search bar and email. You might have to become a forensic accountant. So really helping with the gathering of documents and getting credit reports for both her and her deceased spouse, the go-to answer really is, of course, anything with a deadline. Is there a 30-day or a 90-day expectation to make a decision on a pension? What else has a timeline, right? So anything that is timely.

Speaker 1: 21:01

And then I would say, as quickly as you can get your arms around what the whole picture looks like, is in her best interest.

Speaker 1: 21:11

Some widows want to go through a checklist and get things done quickly, you know, filing the insurances, calling the social security office they like those to-do lists and then other widows are going to want to avoid things. And then the third option, which is also true, is you might have what seems like a different personality show up in your office every other week. Right, it's meeting her where she is on that day, in that moment. The final thing I would say, too, is maybe go to her home as well. So if you have an office, the office might be triggering or it might feel too professional. She might feel like she can't cry or doesn't want to go out. And another thought is having meals instead of meetings. That's been meals, not meetings was something that I picked up in a planning seminar not too long ago and I thought that's a really fantastic idea. I have a widow that I meet with and we have about a 10 or 15 minute long meeting and then we go for a walk together.

Speaker 2: 22:22

I love this idea of meals not meetings Well from the widow's perspective too.

Speaker 1: 22:28

She's having a lot of meals on her own. Yeah Right If she's alone. I mean I was still cooking for kids at home. But that can be a very isolating thing in a nice way. I mean people like having meals together and dining together, and especially if she's alone, it's a really great idea.

Speaker 2: 22:51

Oh, I love that. What else would you say for advisors? You know, one of the things I think about is that there's just a lot of feeling and empathy in what you're describing. Are there any certain phrases or ways that they can sort of either show or to even maybe build those empathy skills?

Speaker 1: 23:12

Sure, kathy Balasek does a really great job actually educating on CFPs and FAs to be trained and learn how to grief speak. She calls it. She does a great job with that and the leaning in and asking stories about the late husband. Asking for his name, like if it's a prospect and you didn't know him, ask about a characteristic, or can you give me a short story to kind of get the feel of what he was like for you and how did he handle finances Right? Keith's legacy is me, it's my children.

Speaker 1: 23:47

I want to talk about him. He loved me, I loved him, he was funny, he was great. So you're not. You're not going to make someone cry. I mean, a lot of times I cry when I talk about Keith especially. I'm in year 10. And, for whatever reason, there's something very powerful about 10. And it seems fresh and hard again that it's been this long. Learning how to speak grief but also taking the word empathy. Learning how to speak grief but also taking the word empathy. And as a certified financial planner, we need to dial that up one click and use the word compassion. So my objective is to help make more compassionate advisors. I feel like certified financial planners are on the front line of being able to support a widow, and the way that we do that is with empathy, and empathy plus help is compassion. We are in position to be helpers and supporters of widows, more so than a lot of other professions out there.

Speaker 2: 24:56

How would, how do you describe how you work with widows and how do you hope, you hope that other other advisors will show that compassion, that they will increase those, those skills, but how? How should they describe their value so that consumers, investors can find them?

Speaker 1: 25:20

I think that's a really great question how I work with widows and actually tell audiences of widows. Work with advisors who work with clients like you. That should be one of your questions Do you work with clients like me? And your second question is do you have a process? I meet with widows every two weeks. I offer holistic planning. I really feel like limitless phone calls. The work is very, very deep and it's very slow, so be prepared for that.

Speaker 1: 25:53

This is not a let's go gather assets as quickly as possible and ignore a client. This is really rolling your sleeves up and learning more about what widowhood actually looks like. So I would highly recommend people at least sign up for a widow supporter newsletter that the Modern Widows Club offers, because that will help you become a little bit more grief aware. Taking classes like Kathy Balasek's class is very important, and then also, I mean the CFP is really foundational to what we do. Right, be ready to make and do everything when it comes to personal finance Something called a widow's penalty.

Speaker 1: 26:40

Your car insurance is going to go up. You have one less driver in that risk pool, so just, it's really prevalent for you to address and assess everything in their personal financial household. It's not good, though, when you see cash flow, and it is highly likely that the cash flow will be negative when you have a loss of income. It's my job to highlight, you know when and if there's a potential that we're going to run out of money, and the hardest thing to do is to tell someone that their lifestyle needs to change. Right? Or hey, now you're a solo parent, why don't you go get a second job? Like? That's not going to happen if you have small children in the home most likely right. So what are the changes that can be made? And being very conscientious and sensitive to the recommendations that you're going to be making, and just being able to hold space and have the conversations to let them think it out loud Do you want to stay in an older home that has a lot of projects?

Speaker 1: 27:51

When I talk about the home, just be aware, too, it's a very sensitive topic for some, but I had written a post about this on LinkedIn. For as many widows who say I could never sell my home, our memories are here. I have another set of widows who say I can't wait to get out of here. I feel like every time I walk through the door, it's like ripping off the bandaid. He's not here anymore. Same situation, widowhood, same object and asset is the home to completely different scenarios, kind of grounded in the same idea. So I would say you know, be brave, be bold and be sensitive. Have the conversation, open the door, especially if it's one that it's because of financial reasons.

Speaker 2: 28:40

Yeah, I can imagine that if you are a widow with young children, that on one hand, you want to keep things as consistent for them as you can, and keep them in all the sports activities, keep them in all of the schools, all of the things, and yet at the same time, to your point, you've had this reduction in income most likely as well. It really is another lesson for life insurance.

Speaker 1: 29:05

Yeah, it's also not being presumptuous. Money is not going to solve your problems, but it does decrease stress and it certainly can buy you time. However, there's the other scenario too. I had worked with a widow and they had just moved and she couldn't wait. She was not the one who wanted to move, so she couldn't wait to move back home to the future place or the past place where they had lived and start her new future over again, right?

Speaker 1: 29:32

So I think that idea of don't be presumptuous or think for them this is where you want to think with them and ask those questions, because we might have our own biases and it's best to hear it from her and to revisit those conversations, because she is slowly going to become a new woman on her own.

Speaker 2: 29:57

Yeah, I think that's really interesting too is that the changes that you could see, right, the home being a wonderful example, the changes that you could see, right, the home being a wonderful example. I might, I can only imagine how I would feel, you know, but I could say that I might want to stay in the home forever. And then maybe it is 10 years later and I think, oh gosh, no, it's still too painful, I haven't healed enough it's, and then I change, change that direction. But to your point that's, it can be no presumption, because no one would be able to know those feelings except for me.

Speaker 1: 30:29

Really focus and give them whole space for a woman to talk and then try and think about you know, are those her values or is that their values? Are those her values or is that their values? Right, it's really women. We bond in a marriage, we us. You know we don't talk about I and me, so listen for that, because it might be a way that she chooses to honor her husband, whatever decision she is making, which is very valuable and very valid and that should be heard. Or she might really know herself well and be very clear on some decisions and then other ones, that if you don't need to make them, yeah, let's discuss that later. It sounds like we have some more thinking to do about that.

Speaker 2: 31:22

I feel like it's something that a lot of advisors could say I've seen it both ways, like you talked about earlier with the house, I've seen it this way and I've seen it this other way and that they could, for not having felt it themselves, potentially that they can tell those stories in a really objective way that still communicates that compassion.

Speaker 1: 31:47

Right, and you can even talk about yourself too, Like I watched my grandfather my grandmother and grandfather during his caregiving years sell the family home and move into a continuing care retirement community. How does that sound for you? You know like you can share what you've witnessed, even on a personal level, and then ask how does that sound to you, what are you thinking about this scenario and what do you see are the possibilities? And then we can add some of the financial acumen. You know, the advice and professionalism to support those decisions. The idea is we never really know if we're making the right or wrong decision. It's more about having a good decision-making process, and when a widow has widow fog or is making decisions on her own for the first time is why I strongly encourage widows to partner up with someone immediately.

Speaker 1: 32:52

Finances are foundational for life. You know we talk about the cash flow. Money comes in, money goes out. It's much like breathing. This is our survivor in us is to make sure that we have enough cash flow, whether that comes from income or an asset. But that's survival for us and I think it's so important for widows to understand. Like but why would you go this alone? Why wouldn't you get someone with professional expertise, and even I work with a financial planner. I work with another registered life planner and it's very simple for me is because I don't have anyone to have these conversations with anymore. I want somebody that has skin in the game in it with me, because I don't have the corner on all good ideas and I can do stupid things too, too right. So it's, I think, refreshing to have someone that does a good job in knowing who you are and when it doesn't sound like you, when did this come from? This doesn't sound like you. Is this a new interest and why?

Speaker 2: 34:00

Can you talk a little bit, too, about Social Security and kids? This is something I didn't know much about until I was researching for this podcast, and sounds like the Social Security system pays more benefits to children than any other federal program does.

Speaker 1: 34:18

Two things. So dependent children eligible for survivor benefits. Income does not matter, they qualify, they get it. You have to. You know, as the parents the funds came in. I used them to pay the mortgage and buy food, so I very much used it as household income, as it is intended to be. So that's theirs and that is theirs until age 18 or 19 in high school graduation. It does not extend into the 20s anymore. That was done back in the early 80s, so that has changed. It used to be through age 21. And at 18, it will go to your child. So you have to fill out the forms. You have to prove that they're still in high school, but it's any and all children.

Speaker 1: 35:07

Dependent children will get a survivor benefit. If you have five children, they all get a proportion up to that maximum 180%. They will all get an equal amount. When you're down to two children under 18 is when you'll actually see a decrease to 150% and then 75% being the maximum when you have one child left. There is another form that's actually for the widow a survivor benefit for the widow if her dependent children are under the age of 16. It's almost like, if you think about it, like you could work part time, make under that 23,800 from last year. I don't even know what it does this year under that income limit and and claim a benefit for yourself, gotcha. So. And that will end when your youngest dependent child turns age 16.

Speaker 2: 36:03

Okay, okay, so it can get you. It can be another source of income into that income puzzle, along with the children's survivor benefits. We've talked a lot about also the emotional and the the compassion side of this work. How do you keep your sense of self as you work with other widows now in your practice?

Speaker 1: 36:35

So I have stepped very big into my identity as a widow. I'm now the chair of the board of directors for the Modern Widows Club and, maybe a month or two ago, the virtual Modern Widows Club support group. They send out that open-ended question and the open-ended question asked is there anything that you're doing today that you wouldn't be doing if your husband was still alive? And I just started bawling Like my whole life has evolved out of having the love of Keith right and losing him. I feel like caring for widows and being a spiritual teacher around money when life has been so hard is truly my calling. That is what I want to do. So that phrase of you get more than you give is very, very true for me. I feel that authenticity and that vulnerability working alongside someone, and it also, at the same time, brings me so much joy to know that, even if there's just a moment of empowerment or clarity, whatever it is, that's such a huge win to meet people in a really hard space.

Speaker 2: 37:58

Oh wow, this has been such a wonderful conversation today. I am just incredibly thankful for you to share your story and these lessons for all of us to take into the practices and into the training of additional advisors and really into just how we can interact with all women who go through this.

Speaker 1: 38:22

Thank you with all women who go through this. Thank you Well, thank you so much for holding space and learning more about how I feel the advising community can be bigger in such a tough emotional life transition. So thank you again for finding me, for hearing me and for leaning into this conversation. Together, I think we'll make a practice a lot better for widows in the future For finding me, for hearing me and for leaning into this conversation. Together, I think we'll make a practice a lot better for widows in the future. Thank you this was great To the financial advising community to please support the Modern Widows Club.

Speaker 1: 39:09

We have coursework on being widowed, so knowing what your resources are if that was the one resource, that is where I would tell you to go. Wings for Widows is a great training ground and organization and nonprofit as well as Savvy Ladies. So the Modern Widows and also, if there isn't a local community of the Modern Widows Club because I can't even begin to tell you that person in-person support group what it meant to me as a caregiver and what it means to me as a widow is truly important. Widows, find other widows. You could, if you have an office offer to have that be the meeting space while they get started, you know, maybe they'll outgrow the space but host a club and the affiliate fees for having a community. If you can identify two widows, that would be good leaders that are interested in starting a club. There is a cost it's $1,500 offered to sponsor them the first year or all the years, in addition to holding space. So my goal and my dream is that there will be a community in every community.

Speaker 2: 40:23

Muriel Network is a refuge, a safe space where women can unite, support one another, inspire each other to take the big leaps and learn how to really break through. Learn more at murielnetworkcom. That's M-U-R-I-E-L networkcom. If you and I both go, it will be incredible.